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> Political Discussions, Have them here and no where else.
Security Corporate
  Posted: April 18, 2007 03:05 am
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As to prevent certain topics from being derailed by members who are less bright than others, I'm making this thread dedicated to any dicussion/argument on politics. This can range from the effectiveness of people in power, a country's foreign/domestic policies, your position on certain wars and so on.

However, there are rules to this:

1) Make well thought out arguments.
2) Don't be an asswipe and call other's who don't have the same viewpoint "idiots" or "morons" or any other kind of insult. The point of these discussions are to learn different ways of thinking from others and to keep an open mind. If you can't do that, I suggest you get the fuck out. Right now.
3) Never let your discussion degenerate into a flame war.

If there are any violations of the rules stated above, your post will either be edited/deleted or you'll get warned by the moderators. Behave!

Now, I'll leave it to you guys to start the first argument.
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Lundquist
Posted: April 18, 2007 09:45 am
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and in a super human effort to re-rail, this already-2-post-derailment (tanker and gamerT1 im talking to you) Lets start off with a specific discussion and one that we all have a hand in, regardless of which side of the pond we are on.

The US occupation (im not in the mood for mincing words and an occupation is what it is, think Germany post 1945 only without the fucking wall) of Iraq, is it justified?
The now world famous lies about the presence of possible WMD's (weapons of mass destruction) what do you think of them and how they have become yesterdays news so quickly? (remember your government lied to you about why it was going to war with another country)
Should they have ever 'gone in' in the first place?
What position could america/britian have adopted instead of invasion?
Should they still be there now?
If you think they should leave how would you deal with the civil unrest that is likely to arise afterwards?

These questions may be a little biased as my own views on the matter are ever so slightly anti-establishment. However, i seek to spark discussion, so discuss!


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Security Corporate
Posted: April 18, 2007 10:11 am
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Well, the US occupation could have been more successful if the stragety used was different. The troops need to clear out the city block by block, building by building, and then drive the insurgents back and secure a much tighter line around the city. Although this sounds like a tedious and probably deadly strategy, it would have been way more effective than what's happening now.

If the Bush Administration really wanted to attack, they could at least have the decency to have a well thought out plan of attack. Right now, it's just quantity over quality. We wouldn't need all these thousands of soldiers over there if the strategy was more effective in the first place.

My two cents on the subject. cool.gif
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Tanker
Posted: April 18, 2007 12:10 pm
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... im sort of in the middle of this conversation... on the one hand yes i believe we should have gone in... for a large list of reasons... none of them have anything to do with WMDs... On the other hand i believe now the battle is pointless and we are just waisting our time and soldiers... though it would be extremely difficult to pull out at this point... it would set Iraq into a complete civil war which its already in but by pulling out of Iraq we would basically be doing what the europeans did to africa years ago... if we pull out and leave them with no strong government then they will end up fighting the same damn war for hundreds and hundreds of years with no end...


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When He opened the fourth seal I heard the voice of the fourth living being say, "Come!" Then I looked and saw an ash-colored horse. The name of its rider was Death, and Hades followed him closely. Authority was granted them over a quarter of the earth, to kill with the sword, with famine, with plaque, and by means of the wild beasts of the earth.

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mallic
Posted: April 18, 2007 06:08 pm
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I believe in war because it helps the economy I meen look at WW2 before the war we were in the depression and during the war all the men were sent out and that opened more jobs for women and made more jobs producing weapons which brought us out of the depression and made us be a super power

Could be handled better though. I mean whats with this crap of america being soft hearted about how we treat our priseners. I mean the enemy we are facing KILLS ITS OWN PEOPLE and tortures our troops to death whenever they catch one. Here we are being kind to the crazy fuckers. We are fighting an enemy that will kill itself to kill us, we can't afford some of the stupid laws involving combat that bush is sending out.

This post has been edited by mallic on April 18, 2007 06:16 pm


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Lundquist
Posted: April 18, 2007 08:43 pm
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QUOTE (Security Corporate @ April 18, 2007 10:11 am)
Well, the US occupation could have been more successful if the stragety used was different. The troops need to clear out the city block by block, building by building, and then drive the insurgents back and secure a much tighter line around the city. Although this sounds like a tedious and probably deadly strategy, it would have been way more effective than what's happening now.

If the Bush Administration really wanted to attack, they could at least have the decency to have a well thought out plan of attack. Right now, it's just quantity over quality. We wouldn't need all these thousands of soldiers over there if the strategy was more effective in the first place.

My two cents on the subject.  cool.gif

Cool, so intelligent discussion.

I can see your point SC but like, in a city the size of Bhagdad, with that many houses, that many streets, alleys whatever, how can you physically search every house, street by street, room by room. You either use the troops you've got, which might not be enough to do the job effectively (you risk missing people if you do it quickly, or do it carefully and take relatively forever) or you start drafting your own civs in (ala Vietnam) and you lot took offence to that last time your government tried it.

Quality over quantity...you're damn right on that one. The american battle plan has basically been the same since the civil war, which is to throw men and equipment at a problem until it goes away. Essentially its the same as any armies plan thorughout the history of the world, but the US has a decent economy and can pull it off.

I can't be bothered to read down atm, so whoever it was who said this kinda thing does the economy good, is right. Problem is that [some law of economics that i can't remember the name of] suggests that this is a cancerous style of growth, its self destructive. You can fight everyone forever and unfortunately even if you could, reasources are finite comodities, you've only got so much steel, energy, food, willpower, soon-to-be-corpses before you run out.

THink of it like a car, you're driving it flat out, then you hit the nitro, only instead of like a 2 second burst you leave the nitro on (assuming you've got a big ass tank of nitro) how long before your engine tears itself apart under the strain? *shrug*

Just look at what happened during that whole hurricane thing in New Orleans. All the home guard and everything were out in iraq, so there were no emergency responce teams set up. Coupled with this was the reaction of the citizens there, instead of trying to help each other out of this fucking god awful situation they found themselves in, they sat around blaming everyone else, stealing their shit, raping thier women and shooting at anything that looked like it was trying to help them out. Craziness.

I'm exagerating a little here to get my point across but unfortunately not any great extent. You people really need to get your government to prioritise what actualy important, not that we as British citizens have got anything to crow about. What we need to do is get like a million or so chavs in the center of london, get them drinking, then get them really angry about something, then just set them loose on the streets of London. That would give the government something to think about.

This post has been edited by Lundquist on April 18, 2007 08:45 pm


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Tanker
Posted: April 18, 2007 08:49 pm
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Mallic-unfortunetly america cant torture POWs... its part of our whole global peace crap... the best we can do is give them to other countries to torture... still i dont believe that torture doesnt exist in america... things happen behind closed doors... you know what i mean?

but you are right sometimes torture is just a necessary evil... and we are fighting a war where our enemy is a coward and uses cowardest tatics as a fighting style with no regaurd for any of the normal fighting guidelines... really they are cowards... they wear civilian clothes as camo... they blow themselves up... i mean really if blowing yourself up brings you so much honor and crap why doesnt Binladin do it? (cant spell his name but you know who i mean...)

Lundquist- i wouldnt say you got it exact Lundquist but your awfully damn close... I think the biggest problem in our government right now is Bush's overall stupidity... we arent fighting the war right... Yes us americans have a tendancy to just throw soldiers at a problem... but really what else are you going to do? thats war the more soldiers you have the stronger... we train them to be the best and then we put them out there... the problem is all Bush can think to do is keep putting more and more... I guess thats how his one track mind thinks... Its like if your trapped in the corner by a bear... so you pick up a rock and throw it at the bear... well that didnt work so you panic and keep throwing rocks with no real effect... thats what Bush is doing... he can't think of anything else to do so he just keeps throwing soldiers out there... and to be honest i dont think you (you being the British) would have faired much better against Hurricane Katrina... it was just one of those things that you cant make into a positive because it just gets worse...

This post has been edited by Tanker on April 18, 2007 09:01 pm


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When He opened the fourth seal I heard the voice of the fourth living being say, "Come!" Then I looked and saw an ash-colored horse. The name of its rider was Death, and Hades followed him closely. Authority was granted them over a quarter of the earth, to kill with the sword, with famine, with plaque, and by means of the wild beasts of the earth.

-Revelations 6:7-8
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hunter
Posted: April 18, 2007 09:08 pm
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QUOTE (Lundquist @ April 18, 2007 07:43 pm)
I'm exagerating a little here to get my point across but unfortunately not any great extent. You people really need to get your government to prioritise what actualy important, not that we as British citizens have got anything to crow about. What we need to do is get like a million or so chavs in the center of london, get them drinking, then get them really angry about something, then just set them loose on the streets of London. That would give the government something to think about.

Now thats a real problem us brits have, all this anti social shit and this new scene of chavs. I mean ringing up the emergency services like fire engines just so they can lob shit at it! I mean what would actually drive you to do something so pointless and retarded! They are actually the scum of the earth and need dealing with, the government actually needs a massive holocaust. What we need to do is round all the chavs up in a field and destroy them.


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Vox_Bloodstone
Posted: April 18, 2007 09:54 pm
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QUOTE (hunter @ April 18, 2007 09:08 pm)
Now thats a real problem us brits have, all this anti social shit and this new scene of chavs. I mean ringing up the emergency services like fire engines just so they can lob shit at it! I mean what would actually drive you to do something so pointless and retarded! They are actually the scum of the earth and need dealing with, the government actually needs a massive holocaust. What we need to do is round all the chavs up in a field and destroy them.

The best way to deal with the chav infestation would be to put them all on a deserted island and then nuke it or just blow it up in some way, then we wouldn't have any more anti social behaviour

i had a chav come into my work thew other day and steal a litre of vodka an morgan spice and he ran out the shop before i could stop him, i rang my manager he told me not to bother phoning the police they don't come out unless you get hurt during the theift which shouldn't be the case at all


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mallic
Posted: April 19, 2007 02:24 am
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stay on topic damnit

and yea the war helping economy only helps so far but as far as katrina we actually had ALOT of forces here but our government was slow to deploy them despite the fact that they had the knowledge that kat was going to be bad


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Tanker
Posted: April 19, 2007 12:24 pm
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wars helping to stop depression only really works if your in a depression... now a days they do more damage than anything else...


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When He opened the fourth seal I heard the voice of the fourth living being say, "Come!" Then I looked and saw an ash-colored horse. The name of its rider was Death, and Hades followed him closely. Authority was granted them over a quarter of the earth, to kill with the sword, with famine, with plaque, and by means of the wild beasts of the earth.

-Revelations 6:7-8
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Security Corporate
Posted: April 27, 2007 05:11 am
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Furthering the discussion on aliens and immigrants here thanks to Zombie's suggestion. smile.gif

Tanker, I'm not going to drop it because you don't get it. You don't live in Arizona close to the border. When people here say immigrant, it means the person legally got to the country, while alien makes them seem more illegal. You stop trying to contradict me, especially when you don't live where I live, and experienced what I've experienced. Really, it is you who should be dropping it.

This post has been edited by Security Corporate on April 27, 2007 05:11 am
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mallic
Posted: April 27, 2007 01:47 pm
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that doth be true we do have a hella lot of aliens and not htat i have a problem with people coming over but they should do it legally and if they cant here is an idea: FIX YOUR OWN COUNTY AND STOP TAKING THE EASY WAY OUT BY COMING TO AMERICA


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Security Corporate
Posted: April 27, 2007 02:41 pm
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QUOTE (mallic @ April 27, 2007 05:47 am)
FIX YOUR OWN COUNTY AND STOP TAKING THE EASY WAY OUT BY COMING TO AMERICA


For many, that's easier said than done. sad.gif
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Tanker
Posted: April 27, 2007 02:55 pm
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For many, that's easier said than done


true...

and for the millionth time i get what your saying but there was nothing racist about it... my neighbor IS mexican and he IS an alien... and he came here legaly. There is nothing wrong with being an alien or an immigrant or whatever and whether or not you take offense to it is really not my problem! So you back off! IT WAS A FREAKING JOKE GET OVER IT!

just becuase your from a place where alien means illegal immigrant doesnt mean its racist. the fact is the word alien doesnt mean that someone has illegaly come to this country. im srry for your postion and i respect that you might have problems with me saying that because of where you live but the fact of the matter is i didnt say anything wrong. im not making it racist you are...

This post has been edited by Tanker on April 27, 2007 05:54 pm


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When He opened the fourth seal I heard the voice of the fourth living being say, "Come!" Then I looked and saw an ash-colored horse. The name of its rider was Death, and Hades followed him closely. Authority was granted them over a quarter of the earth, to kill with the sword, with famine, with plaque, and by means of the wild beasts of the earth.

-Revelations 6:7-8
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