Zombie Player Speed?, I suppose this is self-explanatory...

Why don't we give the survivors the ability to fly while we are at it? There are already places they can camp that are out of reach of player zombies and doing this would increase that number at least ten fold. Plus, if they can't jump then low walls and they like are suddenly ungodly annoying because they can't be crossed, even though you could walk over one without a sweat.

There is none and will be no locational damage on players, end of discussion.

I agree, that's why I went with this suggestion (ie, removing run/jump to keep up the atmosphere of the films that they otherwise maintain--most especially the original Dawn--which YES, I'm very familiar with )

Oh and I will say Return of the Living Dead is an exception, one I actually like quite a bit, but it's a different kind of movie anyway. I think a game version would be utterly hilarious though. (if you've seen it, I think you'll agree to the hilarity).

Is it your base goal to dissuade any suggestions whatsoever?

Anyway: the jump could also be reduced for low walls or whatever...but I dunno. Guess I just read waaaaaay too much into that whole bit in the FAQ where it said it was understood on some servers not to kill player-zombies. My mistake.

I gathered that it was Immoral's character to viciously shoot down suggestions, but making him moderator of this forum seems to suggest the forum itself is inherently superfluous; if the intention is indeed to watch the moderator arrogantly assert that any and all suggestions are stupid (but not as stupid as the person making them).

I mean, I didn't run in and insult his mother, or say his ideas suck, or say the mod sucks, or anything else that should earn such reprehensible response. If that's his (your) thing, that's his thing, but I hope no one expects it to pull in more fans of the mod or anything.

I can see getting nasty when people are repeating previously suggested ideas, or suggesting the addition of something completely unrelated (eg, "ADD ELEPHANTS/NUNS/SPIDER-MAN!") but I don't think it's so completely ridiculous to suggest something quite in the spirit of the living dead, the very basis for the mod.

But then, what do I know? I'm an idealist about gameplay. I don't really think about how someone's going to abuse a system, because I don't play with people who abuse things like that, unless we all go in and sort of agree to fool about.

I suppose that'll teach me to try and make a reasonable suggestion.
IS that the intention here? Get all us stupid bastards to stop our stupid suggestions? Why bother with a forum encouraging such things if someone as firmly associated with the mod (or the official forums for it, if nothing else) as a moderator is just going to insult the suggestions that are made, in subtext if not blatantly?

Everyone here may be used to it, but unless you want the community here to stagnate, you'd better recognize the need for newbies and such. Not that it will drive me off, for I've had more than my share of rude people in my various goings about of forums and am not about to be driven out by a single one here. But others may not be so thick-skinned.

That was hardly a bash. It's a legitimate complaint. I read other threads before making this one, searched throughout the forums, read the list of 'not to post' sorts of things and so on. If someone can go to all that effort, still manage an unsuggested idea, politely phrased (or did I unintentionally insult someone here? please, someone tell me if I did) and then get a rude, impolite response from a moderator, who I would presume is intended to represent the mod in some form...well...there's really no justifiable reason for that attitude, unless he just likes to make people think he's a jerk. Really not the best way to represent the mod though.

So, if he sees that as a reason to "rape" me verbally, that's his problem, not mine. I've done nothing to justify the response I get and any "rapings" will miss completely.

If I get banned for this, so be it. No loss on my part.

So you're saying my first post really WAS impolite?
Crap. Well tell me how it was so I can avoid it in the future.

Uhmmm ok.
I mentioned that I read the stickies, and the idea has some intellectual backing, or so I'd think. It occurred to everyone I tried the mod out with, so unless we're just a gaggle of idiots, which I tend to think we aren't, I'd say there's some foundation here...in which case, like I said, yay for getting people too lazy to read stickies, yay for getting people with totally inane ideas.

However, I read the stickies, said so, searched the board and generally put more effort into it than most do, and didn't suggest flying parachute rocket launcher airplanes, or a chainsaw (which I read somewhere was coming anyway) or a pitchfork, baseball bat, brick, stick, club, hatchet, knife, sword and battle axe, nor zombies that spit acid, nor the 'cure for zombiehood', etc etc etc.

I suggested something that stood out to me, as a zombie lover, to my friends as the same, something that apparently some people have said they agree with in this very thread, something that fits in with the spirit of zombie movies as a whole, especially the Romero-esque style within this mod*.

Now it seemed to me that the responses were by no means thoughtless, but that Immoral's sole purpose is to look negatively at every suggestion and see what is wrong with it, as opposed to what good there might be in it. I didn't say I had the best idea, or this mod sucks without my idea, or anything else that deserved that remark. I noted the fact that it would be hell to play as a zombie if this were enacted--but why shouldn't it be? Right now, to me, becoming a zombie is almost an annoyance, I suddenly switch to the other team, but am clearly more motivated to just kill some damn people and get back to the survivors. There's no real motivation to play as a zombie, and little incentive to avoid it. If you knew you were going to end up shambling around, barely able to touch anyone else, you'd be just that more careful about turning, and it would emphasize the fear and horror of what it is you could (and most likely would) become.

If you and Immoral and whoever else feel otherwise, why not just say "I disagree, I don't think it would add that much to the atmosphere, or that the annoyance suffered would not be equivocable to any advantages."
Instead of "Why don't we give the survivors the ability to fly while we are at it?"

You can't have a decent discussion if you react to every single point brought up with sarcastic derision and arrogance. So, again, is that the point? To drive off all suggestions?
Why is it so hard to be polite?

I could understand if it was someone unrelated to the mod, but I think it's very unbecoming of a moderator to treat newcomers' ideas like dirt, especially ones that, as far as I can tell, have not yet been mentioned.

If you think that's fine 'n' dandy, we'll just have to disagree. Maybe we can try doing so politely, instead though, instead of implying that my ideas are full of laziness and lacking in intelligence.


*And yes, I will fully back that man as influential for this mod would not exist without him; NotLD re-invented the 'zombie' as a flesh-eater, as a 'living dead' being, instead of a hypnotized voodoo victim, etc. OK, so RotLD is responsible for the "BRAAAAAINS" bit, but beyond that, my point stands. The destruction of the brain 'solution' also arose from Romero.

This post has been edited by FangsFirst on February 09, 2005 10:45 am

Intellectual backing is does not automatically make the reasoning behind it sound.

And I applaud you for that, welcome to the minority.

I have watched only a single zombie movie, and that was Shaun of the Dead, I play this mod for the fun factor, not the likeness to a zombie movie factor. So I can't debate any specific points from any movies, however, I know that Brain Bread focuses on the enjoyment of the game, not the nitty gritty as close to Romero as we can get it game.

Thanks you for taking the time to notice that.

I've said this before and I'll say it again for those that didn't hear it, I am a realist and a pessimist. If a reason for a suggestion not to be implemented can be found and can not be refuted, then there is almost no chance of it making it in the first place.

Then you take sarcasim too seriously in my opinion.

Uhhh... That this exactly the way it is 'sposed to be. As far as I can tell, that is exactly what the devs wanted it to be.

So, you just want to ignore the five or six reasons I had posted BEFORE that? Also notice that I give a sound rebuttle immediately after that remark.

I treat all ideas like dirt, not just newcommers, hell, I even treat my own ideas like dirt, which is why I have only made 2 suggestions in my time here on these forums.

I think that thoughly explains my position on these matters.

I have explained the reasoning more thoroughly now, though, and in my opinion it holds up fairly well, and at least a couple of people seem to agree.

I wasn't aiming for 'as close to Romero as possible' by any means, if that were the case, I'd also be suggesting 'headshots ONLY' can kill zombies (which has crossed my mind but I'd imagine could not be implemented, considering what it would take to implement, unless of course the HL engine could be tricked into finding the bounding box for zombie models to be entirely around the head) and that it only takes one headshot, that turning would take longer, that anyone who dies for any reason would come back as a zombie, a single bite would cause 'infection,' there would be no "FRED," zombies could climb, zombies would never be referred to as zombies (I guess you didn't get the "Z word" joke in Shaun, eh?) and so on and so forth.

What my thinking was, was that here we have a mod composed of shambling zombies, so why shouldn't the player zombies ALSO be shambling zombies? I felt it made the mod ITSELF incoherent in a sense, as you are not turning into one of "them" you are turning into a third "species" outside of the creatures you've been fighting as/with and those you've been fighting against. The fact that it fit in with the spirit of the films on which the mod is based, I felt, was simply stronger evidence that it made sense.

Note that my second response acknowledged the fact that you refuted the 'no running' and suggested simply 'no jumping' instead. You refuted that as well, so I continued to accomodate your concerns. I didn't repeat the same idea, and I know you're smart enough to have seen that. Yet you acted as if I had. You seemed predisposed toward prevention of any implementation of any iteration of this concept whatsoever.

I'm curtailing my sense of humour almost completely in this thread, but let it be known that sarcasm is something I never take too seriously, and I knew it was sarcasm, but my essential point stands:
1) People who don't know you, or know sarcastic people very well will not recognize that fact.
2) There WAS a tone of condescension to the remark, perhaps unintentional, but present nonetheless, which is different from the essence of sarcasm.
3) The poin that comes from the combination of the above is that, as I've been told many times in my life, being a terribly sarcastic person, that it's an awful idea to be sarcastic with people who don't know you, as they generally won't understand.

In truth you remind me quite a bit of someone on another board I frequent, or someone who used to hang around there. He and I ended up getting along well enough that he sent me a free copy of a game as it looked like I wouldn't be able to get it when it came out. But new people still had difficulty getting why he seemed like such a jerk, when it was really just his unusual attitude.

An annoyance? Not something to dread and try desparately to avoid? At this point, what I mean by 'annoyance' is that I'll risk it, throw caution to the wind and go ahead and let it happen. Basically, the same problem with the 'unlimited lives' issue you suffer in many games: many people don't bother to acknowledge carefully developed characteristics of a game/mod, and just go in gung ho, same as always. Turn into a zombie? Eh, kind of annoying, but whatever, I'll change back after I eat two brains then suicide. I guess if you see that as all right, well, that's how you see it and we'll have to 'agree to disagree' as they say.

Well, please notice as well that I first suggested no running, you refuted that, so I re-presented the idea as "OK, how about no jumping?" but you act here as if I simply posited the exact same suggestion again, but I didn't. And yes, you did give a sound rebuttal immediately after that, so I again changed the idea. This is what I meant. You responded brusquely but essentially politely after the first suggestion, then acted as if I were merely re-posting it, yet I wasn't. I looked for a compromise, or some way to develop the idea further, some way to effectively communicate the concept which I and a couple of others felt was appropriate. You denied all of them out of hand, which is fine since you came up with reasons, but the attitude grew each time, despite the fact that I was trying to work with you on this, you seem adamantly opposed to compromise in any fashion. Not that it's necessary, since it isn't my mod, but still.

Well, again, there's a difference between being self-deprecating and assaulting the ideas of others; in one case you are doing something to yourself, which few would be pressed to argue with. In the other case, you are attacking something borne of another, which many will take issue with (obviously).
And, as I said, new people aren't necessarily going to understand that. I have experience with this sort of thing, so it doesn't really get to me (I know these posts seem to contradict that, but I merely do this in the spirit of pointing out the risk to new members who may or may not accept it as I do) but others it would.

This post has been edited by FangsFirst on February 09, 2005 11:33 pm

There is still the issue of survivors camping outside of a player zombie's reach. Reducing the jump height is the same as taking it away because a zombie can not crouch in order to get up high on objects, if zombies could crouch I could understand lowering the hieght of the jump slightly, but zombies are limited enough where they can reach.

One could argue that they are simple "fresher meat" however I think that debate would go nowhere fast. If this was a mod based on logic and realism, I would be inclined to agree with you; however, it is not, the way to mod is structured requires that player zombies have a speed advantage.

To me, removing the ability to jump without removing the speed a player zombie has seemed even more ludicrist than just removing the ability to run. From my point of view it seemed like a more illogical step rather than a compromise. That combined with the point I continue to press, the camping survivors, made the idea strike me as "What is he thinking?"

That we will.

It is not my mod either, however I generally can tell if an idea, regardless of compromises will have a shot of making it with the devs. As for the growing attitude, the only one I read having a larger attitude than the others is my fourth, and that is because of the sarcasim.

I am not so much as self-depredcating as I am overly critical. And as for assaulting other's ideas, if there is an open avenue of attack that I can find, then there are problems with the idea. I tend to be blunt and to the point when pointing out these problems and why the idea will not make it and over time have become harsher and harsher about it. I can guess at the reasons why, but that's a post for another thread.

The zombie "part" is broken? It needs fixed? That seems rather arbitrary and subjective. Could you provide any reasons that have not already been mentioned or perhaps try to refute my current aurgument against this idea. Without both of those occuring, this idea will not get listened too or even heeded at all for that matter.

Hmmm, I don't derive any pleasure from shooting down ideas, plus I find them more annoying than enjoyable so I am going to have to disagree with you there, Freud. Now unless you have a degree in Psychology, I highly recommend againts trying to psychoanalyze people, especially over the internet. Doubly so if attempting it to use it in an offensive manner like you tried.

This post has been edited by Immoral Sniper on February 11, 2005 02:55 pm