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> Why, why, why?, Admins wanna jump in here?
|2enegade
Posted: May 06, 2005 10:24 pm
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QUOTE (Dragontail @ May 6 2005, 06:00 AM)
Now where was I....oh yes!...player zombies should always be allowed the option of attacking thier former teammates because that is obviously what they are supposed to be doing. I don't care if the mods, creators, jesusfoo, buddah, and allah all say otherwise. They must be playing some other BB.

I'm not sure if you're joking here, but basically what you're saying is: "I'm right no matter what, not even if those in a position to correct me tell me I'm wrong, I'm still right!". I don't think I can make a valid arguement against that... it would sort of be like trying to argue the shape of a cloud with a blind person.... laugh.gif

But, in any case, as I continue to stand by, due to the irreconcilable differences in our gameplay beliefs, there remains one, undeniable truth that I continue to profess: regardless of your beliefs, for the sake of mutual respect and common decency you MUST acknowledge and adhere to the rules of the server you are playing on. I believe everyone can agree with that, no?


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Dragontail
Posted: May 07, 2005 02:58 am
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You can't argue against reality. Perception = reality. Herman Hesse (a classic German author) said that one of the most frustrating things about having people read his work, was when they understood some point in his writing that he had never intended. But in the end he realized that there is nothing to do for it. People will always take works of art (books, paintings, movies, music, Video games) and they are going to view it through their own world lens, not the creator's. And we will experiment with it in ways the original author never imagined, and find completely new meanings within. What we discover could even be the complete opposite of what was originally intended. Look what some Christians and Muslims have done with the Bible and the Q'uran. The original intention of the game may have been nice and friendly coop objective completion, but a few players can make the game full on PvP. Nobody cares who intended what, we just want the freedom to explore and experiment. Following someone else's idea of how things should happen is boring, and not what gameplay is about.

I agree that you should follow the rules for whatever server you are on.


This post has been edited by Dragontail on May 07, 2005 03:00 am


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slappy
Posted: May 07, 2005 07:27 am
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time for another longtime player to chime in.

when we FIRST started beta-testing, there was no agreement whatsoever among any of us to only kill NPCs. The game was a free-for-all with plenty of pvp goodness. the zombies were also way too fast and player spawning normally involved getting infected while trying to run to an area with guns.

the very first "kill the marines only" server that started perplexed everyone, including most of the dev team. It was decided that this new mode of play would be allowed, but everyone would be encouraged to play the original pvp way.

zombies and ladders: the first few maps had some "safe areas" that allowed protection from NPC and player zombies. these areas had ladder access and limited ammo, and once that was gone, the players had no real chance to finish the mission.

People seem to forget that the game is supposed to be mission based, and it is supposed to be possible to win or lose the missions. player zombies are one of the factors that are supposed to allow for the game to be lost.


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|2enegade
Posted: May 07, 2005 11:00 pm
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QUOTE (slappy @ May 7 2005, 07:27 AM)
People seem to forget that the game is supposed to be mission based, and it is supposed to be possible to win or lose the missions. player zombies are one of the factors that are supposed to allow for the game to be lost.

I believe you misunderstand the role of a player in the winning of the mission. If the game were based on two seperable and independant teams, in which each was vying for its own success, then yes, each would strife to lose the game for the other. HOWEVER since there exists no zombie "team" other than those unfortunate enought to be punished onto zombies for the duration of a minute or less, than that proposes an inherint logical flaw in your last statement. Since player zombies will rejoin the human team afterwards it makes NO sense for them to want to allow for the game to be lost, because it means they are losing it for themselves as well. Thus including pvp to allow the game to be lost at the hands of player zombies makes little to no sense in light of the fact that only a infantile, monotasking person would want to actually lose a game for himself...

QUOTE (Dragontail)
You can't argue against reality. Perception = reality. Herman Hesse (a classic German author) said that one of the most frustrating things about having people read his work, was when they understood some point in his writing that he had never intended. But in the end he realized that there is nothing to do for it. People will always take works of art (books, paintings, movies, music, Video games) and they are going to view it through their own world lens, not the creator's. And we will experiment with it in ways the original author never imagined, and find completely new meanings within. What we discover could even be the complete opposite of what was originally intended. Look what some Christians and Muslims have done with the Bible and the Q'uran. The original intention of the game may have been nice and friendly coop objective completion, but a few players can make the game full on PvP. Nobody cares who intended what, we just want the freedom to explore and experiment. Following someone else's idea of how things should happen is boring, and not what gameplay is about.

This is what you call arbitrary and useless banter. Ultimately I could profess that you, nor anyone else is real, but merely an integral figment of a grand schematic illusion that I am being subjected to by myself or some other omnipresent being. That is the principle of the "Evil Genious" (Rene Descartes). When one convinces one's self of the existence of the "Evil Genious" complex, everything becomes a subjective truth. However, you must realize that in the "real" world, the practical world in which we live, such a belief is outrageous and unpractical. Therefore, technically, using such a "mask" belief will prove the believer always correct, it is of no value of practicality in the real world and thus rendered useless to everyone other than the one who believes it. Thus your defence that your perception is your own reality is technically correct, but practically and effectively useless and of no consequential value to anyone else or this conversation.


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Dragontail
Posted: May 08, 2005 01:21 am
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You say it's of no practicality, I don't know how practical it is, yet everyone lives that way. Including you my friend.


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slappy
Posted: May 08, 2005 07:08 am
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QUOTE (|2enegade @ May 7 2005, 05:00 PM)
Since player zombies will rejoin the human team afterwards it makes NO sense for them to want to allow for the game to be lost, because it means they are losing it for themselves as well. Thus including pvp to allow the game to be lost at the hands of player zombies makes little to no sense in light of the fact that only a infantile, monotasking person would want to actually lose a game for himself...

it used to be 100% optional to spawn as a human again, thus it was fully possible to play as a zombie for nearly the entire round. the forced respawn feature is something that i fought against, and still believe should not be a part of the game.


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|2enegade
Posted: May 09, 2005 12:31 am
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QUOTE (slappy @ May 8 2005, 07:08 AM)
it used to be 100% optional to spawn as a human again, thus it was fully possible to play as a zombie for nearly the entire round. the forced respawn feature is something that i fought against, and still believe should not be a part of the game.

ahhh, well that makes a lot more sense. Yes, definately, if zombies are allowed to stay zombies as an official "team" than, PvP is okay, but since this option has been removed so should have PvP gone with it. Infact I believe this is the root of all these problems, that initially, the mod had PvP in it, but then it was "taken out" but some elements of it were still left in, causing this mass confusion over its role in the game. For next patch, the devs should probably look into either taking it completely out, bringing it completely back in, or splitting the mod into two different gameplay mods.

QUOTE (Dragontail)
You say it's of no practicality, I don't know how practical it is, yet everyone lives that way. Including you my friend.

huh? no, I most definately do not live that way. Anyone that lives with the notion of the "Evil Genious" is paranoid and will become inable to function as a practical human in society (a society which he does not believe even exists). I truly hope you are merely joking, and really don't believe in that...


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Till Death Do us Part
Posted: May 17, 2005 06:26 pm
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QUOTE (|2enegade @ Apr 28 2005, 11:01 PM)
QUOTE (Dragontail @ Apr 27 2005, 06:38 PM)
Can't believe this thread is still going. So we are all agreed that player zombies should attack thier former teammates. Good. Don't get all hung up on the fact that you will be on thier team again once you die. You are a zombie so act like one and eat thier face off. This game was designed for PvP.

No, I agree that zombies should hack away at NPCs, but NOT their former teammates. Hence why ladder climbing is disallowed, so zombie players cannot climb up ladders to attack human players, and must limit themselves to attacking ground-posiitoned NPCs.
This game was not designed for PvP, the signs are evident, apart from the fact that it states clearly in the Game FAQ that this game is co-op

I'm a little late here, but I just read this.

Let's put this simply...

IF PvP WAS DISCOURAGED, WHY GIVE PLAYER ZOMBIES THE ABILITY TO HURT PLAYER HUMANS?!?!


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|2enegade
Posted: May 20, 2005 09:22 pm
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For the purpose of creating a wholistic game. Also, some remnants of BB alpha gameplay have been left in (to the games detriment) a lapse in foresight.


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Blue Summer
Posted: May 20, 2005 09:25 pm
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QUOTE (|2enegade @ May 20 2005, 09:22 PM)
For the purpose of creating a wholistic game. Also, some remnants of BB alpha gameplay have been left in (to the games detriment) a lapse in foresight.

A lapse in foresight that could be fixed in later versions but has been tamperd with suggesting that if they were against it they would of taken it out.


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This is what Ive said for the past couple months every time has requested source: BB source is highly unlikely because the mod team (Ironoak) has decided to use the crystal engine to create an rpg, although they have said there is a small chance of going to source but please, for the sake of all mankind, do not request a port and/or create polls, or even useless threads about the porting of BB, because it is most likely not going to happen, thank you for reading.

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Security Corporate
  Posted: May 20, 2005 11:52 pm
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Oh yes, very nice Dragontail. Calling me a chicken isn't going to do much, besides annoy me a little. If you want to prove Renegade wrong, don't turn against people who are on your side. I said that because I know Renegade will reply with a whole paragraph of things I really don't want to read. And I didn't want to reply again with more arguments because then it will turn into a flame war. Besides, I didn't want to be absorbed into this topic for weeks on end, I just wanted to get my few bits in, and then all of a sudden Renegade lashes back like some political debate. Anyway, I'm not a chicken, I just wanted to leave since crazy shit (forgive the swearing) will happen the second I finished that post.

This post has been edited by Security Corporate on May 20, 2005 11:53 pm
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Dragontail
Posted: May 21, 2005 04:15 am
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You make me laugh little man. hahaha


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Security Corporate
  Posted: May 21, 2005 04:46 am
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Your immaturity makes me laugh even harder.
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|2enegade
Posted: May 21, 2005 11:18 pm
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QUOTE (Security Corporate @ May 20 2005, 11:52 PM)
Oh yes, very nice Dragontail. Calling me a chicken isn't going to do much, besides annoy me a little. If you want to prove Renegade wrong, don't turn against people who are on your side. I said that because I know Renegade will reply with a whole paragraph of things I really don't want to read. And I didn't want to reply again with more arguments because then it will turn into a flame war. Besides, I didn't want to be absorbed into this topic for weeks on end, I just wanted to get my few bits in, and then all of a sudden Renegade lashes back like some political debate. Anyway, I'm not a chicken, I just wanted to leave since crazy shit (forgive the swearing) will happen the second I finished that post.

If you're not willing to run the bases, don't step up to bat. wink.gif

on-topic: yes I seriously do hope they fix it so that PvP is take completely out, put completely in, or divided into two seperate modes, but as it is now, all coagulated into each other, it causes much problems.


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Till Death Do us Part
Posted: May 23, 2005 01:35 pm
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Seriously, Renegade. Listen...

Wholistic? Ha! The developers obviously left it in for a reason. If you could, would you mind posting a list of all the signs that "clearly" were put in place by the devs to discourage PvP?

EDIT: And in regard to your last post, what kind of problems?

This post has been edited by Till Death Do us Part on May 23, 2005 01:36 pm


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